No-shows and cancellations.

[bodyartist]

The problem with "trade" agreements, and TFP in specific, is one of perception. No shows are a fact of life in every field.

I'm an "old" timer, and TFP predates me by a few centuries.

The idea is that if an artist/photographer and a model have some time, no money, and want to work on something, they can. It's not a way of life, nor is having models pay photographers a valid revenue stream. A model who pays is a CLIENT, and the images *need* to be for their benefit, and 99% are still for the photographer's benefit -- either in composition, or with huge watermarks.

Lately, I think the definition of a GWC is someone who posts how much time, equipment, or money they have "invested" in photography, and how TFP is ruining the business, and all models should pay them handsomely. A Photographer, or artist, talks about their _art_ or _work_ not how much they spend/have.

If you want models to pay you, you are a portrait or commercial photographer. Which is fine, but TFP was aimed at the ART photographer, not the commercial/fashion photographer. Sure, for starting out, for students needing pictures for their portfolios and pictures of their clothing/look for their portfolios, TFP is still a great thing.

If you are looking for _MODELS_ you are shooting stock, art, or something that is about YOUR ideas for YOUR photos. Or, you have a client, and you are looking to PURCHASE model services to complete the project. If you are looking for models to pay you, you are either a GWC or you are running a commercial portrait or portfolio business, and TFP is not in your BUSINESS plans. Models do not pay photographers! Would the vase pay the artist? I think not.

If you are looking for models to pay you to work on YOUR portfolio, therein lies the problem with TFP and paid work. TFP has to benefit BOTH parties equally - and that usually shooting some for the photographer and some for the model.

Sure, people can do both at times, but try to keep the ideas separate. Your specific "ideas" or plans for a TFP session may not be anything like the ideas or needs of someone else.

If you want the site to succeed, you need to get rid of TFP, cancellation, and No-show threads, or relegate them to a flames or fumes area. A forum/site is only useful, and friendly, when it's constructive, not destructive.

And one last thing, I've seen photographers brag (disguised as a rant) they have $40,000 and 10 years invested in their photography and equipment. Current stats show that a model has close to $200,000 invested, and 18 years (or more) getting to that point. If you don't like the current crop of models, grow you own. See if you can do it for less than than $500 day rate for your next shoot.

I have to say, after the captcha codes that had to be entered 20 times, and the same old rants, it hasn't been a friendly or inviting first look.

[ffppro]

bodyartist:

First off, I do agree that this thread did belong in the "Rants and Flames" section of the site.

Unfortunately that is the only thing I agree with you on.

I no way did I want this thread to turn in to the old argument on who pays, the photgrapher or the model. This thread was supposed to be about acting professional and honoring your commitments.

BUT, since we are on the subject, let me beat the dead horse.



In today's day and age of America's Next Top Model, every young pretty girl considers herself a model. Just look on MM and OMP, and look at the number of cell phone pictures people post in their "portfolios". Furthermore this delusion is further fanned by "nice look" and "great shot" comments that are posted on these girl's profiles by all the GWCs out there, who are only looking to hook up with pretty girls, and are calling themselves photographers. At least some of these guys bothered to buy a low end DSLR to keep up appearances.

You mean to tell me that these girls have invested $200,000 in their modeling careers? The worst example are the "models" that will get naked for a complete stranger in a hotel room, and let him take pictures for $50/hr, and call it a paying modeling job.

In this environment to make a statement that models don't pay photographers is ludicrous. There is plenty of work for the photographer with a portrait studio who will shoot a starting portfolio for an aspiring model for a reasonable fee.

This brings me to TFCD shoots:

From a photographers point of view, there are 2 schools of thought:

1. Pay me for professional pictures if you want a professional look in your book.

2. Spend the time posing for me, so that I may get the images I need for my stock book, or pure art, and you will get professional pictures for your book.

There is a fine line between a photographer and a GWC, and for me it's pretty simple: Your images speak for themselves. You don't need 40K of equipment to take a good picture. If you are a good photographer, you can take a good picture, period. (Although I will argue that you do need the right tools for the right job).

Not every photographer out there is a professional, and there are many amateurs who will do TFCD, or will pay the model for their time to build a body of work.

In my case, I am a "semi-pro", which means I make money in photography, but not my living. I never charge a model, and will always pay a model if I am getting paid (commercial job). If I am shooting stock, or personal projects, I will use a TFCD model. I will always ask her what she needs for her book, and will always try to get her the shots that she need.

TFCD is a great way for a beginner model to add to her book, an amateur photographer to build a body of work, and for a pro (semi-pro) to add to their stock library or to work on personal projects.

All that said, all parties involved still have to act professional. If you are an aspiring model, respect the photographer's time / experience / equipment investment by showing up. If you are a photographer, respect the model's time by showing up and taking the best pictures possible, and of course make sure that the model gets her pictures in a timely matter.

I would love to hear model's oppinions on this.

[Cspmf]

I am in total agreement with you Igor. I understood this post to be about profesionalism not a rant and rave. I never got the impression you were bragging about your investment or experience either, just making a point about the fact that some people just don't understand what is involved in a shoot paid or not. It goes to show the fact that sometimes some people misunderstand the written word or tone of the comments posted.
P.S. Professionalism applies to all involved......Photographs, Models, Make-up Artists Etc.

[elhphoto]

I just joined the site but already have had some problems with models. Now I have to admit that I do not possess the experience of working with models. I have done most of my work in weddings and general portraiture. I thought I had a lead on a model willing to do tfp. However, the last I heard from her was waiting to get her new work schedule so we could plan out the shoot. That was two weeks ago. I am not in the habit of pursuing people and therefore consider her saving me time.

[andyj]

Now I know I rant and rave about no shows, but you have to give credit where credit is due:

There are only a few really "Flaky" models out there. Most of the girls I work with are prompt, and reliable. They show up on time, are ready to shoot on time, bring exactly the wardrobe that they promised, and most importantly: Have their nails painted! (Got I hate to photoshop in nail polish )

You have got to be kidding me! If you are working with agency models, then yes, most probably do not flake. However, my opinion is that for every 5 models I schedule a shoot with, I will probably get 2 to show up. I have had some nice conversations with MUA's while waiting for a no show that confirmed only hours earlier.

To me, it does not matter if you are being paid or just traiding images, if you agree to a shoot, then you show up for a shoot. If I agree to shoot a model, I will shoot the model even if it means turning down a better or paid gig over a TFCD. Being professional has absolutly nothing to do with pay, you either are professional and show up on time, or you are unprofessional and blow off a shoot.

For now I will only use those models from an agency or the ones who have actually made it to a shoot when I have a paying client. The last question I want the client to ask is "What happened to your models?".

[EJTAcottoImages]

I agree about models not showing up, But if you are turning down gigs that you get paid for .... who is really wrong! This is free for free and not bring that extra work to yourself. Photo shop'n polish... lol, I am no longer the model and will not do that type of work for them if it is a free exchange. They should have that stuff done the day before unless they are a Natural model and those are few and far between. Request and hour cal before. ... Have them call you an hour before the photo shoot so you know they are coming. If not, then don't show! This can be a vivid contract agreement through an email even. All there is to it. Try that and let me know.

[ffppro]

It happened AGAIN! Another model flakes out.



14 e-mail messages, several conversations, planning, scheduling, wardrobe, makekup, production assistant, studio rental, NO MODEL! No call, No TXT, No e-mail, just another F*%$NG no show.

[Eclectic Images]

I was teaching studio lighting classes about 30 years ago at a local continuing education school. They decided to add a figure photography class after a bunch of my students asked the administration for a follow up to my portrait class. So I run an ad in the local paper for models, and get boatloads of responses. After listening to a bunch of good sounding models I schedule them in sight unseen. This was the mid 70's. Sure as hell, no show. Happens again the next week, but the next gal calls at the last minute. So I schedule her for the following week. She shows up over an hour late the next time, drunk as a skunk so she would be fortified for the shoot. She can't even sit upright ;-) We finally had to use all prone poses to get some shooting done, LOL! I didn't call that one back either ;-)

Finally the solution was to schedule anyone who applied to a free test shoot at my home in the lower level studio I had. Some objected and I told them I had too many problems with no shows and cold feet, and couldn't afford to keep a class of students waiting on a no-show. I further told them it was a chance to find out if they were or weren't comfortable posing nude before the class time. Probably half of the ones I scheduled at home wouldn't show up, but I figured if it was at home there were other things I could be doing. I wouldn't even bother to get the lights set up until they showed.

The ones who didn't show at home got their card tossed and I didn't bother calling them again. The ones who did show for the most part were okay. A couple were just too uncomfortable or tense, or whatever, and I would just have to tell them they wren't ready for the class yet. The ones who did show for the trial shoot and were scheduled for later always showed.

To me the point would be that a trial or rough shoot would be a qualifier before investing further time and resources to a shoot requiring other people's services or purchase of suppies/props.

[BobEdens]

First let me say I fall under the "artist" category.

If a model pays me its her shoot, just like if she was a portrait client. The photos are hers and I do not ask to put the photos in my book as to me that would be a conflict she has paid with money, not trade. (I still own the photos just don't get a release and don't post them unless she asks me to)

If I pay the model, its my shoot. We shoot my ideas and my theme and the photos are mine to post. I do not give any photos to a model I pay unless they are part of the agreement.

If its a trade, I expect her to keep her word. I will keep mine. I'll edit a pre determined number of shots and try hard to make sure she had a great experience and will tell her friends what a great guy I am. (Flake insurance)

[click_thats_beautiful]

Brief introduction: I've been an amateur photographer for over 25 years, shooting mostly scenics and travel. About 6 years ago, I began self-study for shooting portraits and glamour. I found one mature lady who wanted pictures for posterity, and was somewhat pleased with the results. ModelMayhem.com - Lake Photography - Photographer - Huntsville, US

So, I've invested years of study, at least $10K in cameras, lights, etc., and a professional outlook to what I'm doing. Am I a GWC ? Don't care.

But, I've experienced the same thing from women I've approached with a business card and women who have approached me. I'm looking to improve my skills by shooting TFCD sessions for them, and shooting pictures in the way they want them shot. I've wasted weeks of time with models, who don't even call to say they can't make it (not even a wedding! LOL).

I think it boils down to two things:

1. They have nothing invested in the session. No deposit, no effort, nothing except polishing their nails. We've gone out of our way to make it so easy on them, they feel no loss when they flake.

2. Lack of work ethic. So many young people have been brought up with the idea that they don't have to put effort into anything to be successful (look at the thousands of wannabes that show up for American Idol tryouts), that they don't see the problem in not working at 'this model thing'.

Yeah, there will always be other photogs looking for a free model to build their skills/portfolios, so if you toss their card they can always find another guy to do a shoot their boyfriend wants. As mentioned earlier, all it takes is a scan of Model Meyham or MySpace pages to see the 'models' 'portfolios' filled with party pictures where you have to figure out which girl is the model.

I'm looking at two options: puting a comp card on the local modeling school bulletin board or requiring a refundable deposit.

I await your (flames) thoughts ...